375 Joanna Hennon + Holly ~ How Oracle Cards Can Enrich Your Outdoor Adventures

Transcript

Holly: Hello and welcome to the Into the Woods podcast, episode 375. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fabulous Joanna Hennon. Today we talk about how oracle cards can enrich your outdoor adventures.

I don’t know how I got the idea to talk about this, but I can’t believe we haven’t talked about this before! I am really into outdoor adventures, Joanna is really into Oracle cards (I like them too), but this really seemed like the perfect topic for both of us to come together with each of our areas of expertise and passions.

So ever since the very first time I walked the South Downs Way, five years ago, I have been pulling oracle cards before my long distance walks. I pulled one card for each day and sometimes I pull an extra card to represent the overarching theme of the journey.

Why do I do this? It helps me to set the intention for each day, it gives me insight into what is going on for me internally and, when the going gets rough physically, it gives me something to focus on as I put one foot in front of the other towards my destination.

If you have read my books, Alone on the South Downs Way, or Alone on the Ridgeway, you will know that I often use these themes as a mantra to repeat over and over again or I will make a little song out of them, that’s what I focus on when my body is physically feeling challenged and I need to just keep going. So I find this really, really, useful and it has been different for me every time.

So in this episode, what are you going to learn?

We talk about: what are oracle cards? If you don’t know what they are, we talk about what they are and how can you use them. We discuss why you might want to use oracle cards in your outdoors adventures. How oracle cards can enrich your outdoor adventures, particularly that inner journey that goes along with the physical journey of outdoor adventures. We discuss how I use oracle cards before a long distance walk. We share the different ways that you can use oracle cards in your adventures and we include questions that you can ask an oracle card deck before an outdoor adventure, because sometimes people really struggle to know what to ask, or what intention to use.

So I include all of that and have tons of links in the show notes, including to Joanna’s recent blog posts about oracle cards which I am sure you will find useful. And that’s it for now, so without further ado, here is the episode.

Holly: Hi Joanna!

Joanna: Hi Holly!

Holly: How are you doing?

Joanna: I am good, how are you?

Holly: Looking forward to today’s conversation.

Joanna: We are talking about oracle cards which is like my favourite thing to talk about.

Holly: And we are talking about outdoors adventures which is my favourite thing to talk about, so yay! I think this is the perfect combination of your expertise and my passion!

Joanna: Oh my goodness, that’s true! Except that you also like oracle cards and I am not super-crazy about outdoor adventures! {laughing}

Holly: {laughing} Well, that’s what we are going to talk about today. So I think for a lot of people this is going to be a weird combination of topics, whereas for me it is totally natural. Let’s start by talking about what are oracle cards? This is really your area of expertise because I have been using them for years but it is your thing.

Joanna: Right so oracle cards, they call them a divination tool, and people think they are telling the future, but I want to make clear from the start that we are not telling the future here, what we are doing is tapping into intuitive higher wisdom. The thing is, the reason for why you should use oracle cards or any such tool in the first place, is that your mind is limited, so when you look at the world and try to problem-solve, and try to navigate your life just from the headspace, just from the brain, then you are limited, because the brain is limited by what it thinks is true, what it has seen is possible, rather than everything that is available. And oracle cards are a way to tap into that wider perspective which, for me, is really the soul perspective, the perspective of your higher self, of who you truly are, all those kinds of big concepts and to access wisdom that you wouldn’t normally see just with your mind.

Holly: Okay, and so how are they different from tarot cards?

Joanna: So tarot cards are based on an additional system of symbols, so you have to learn a system first, I guess. Not everyone learns a system, but tarot decks are all based around the same structure of certain suits and certain figures, certain symbolism, whereas oracle cards are freer. So you can make an oracle card about anything. There are still cards and each card still has an image or some words or a phrase or a number, sometimes just one image and sometimes a whole picture with lots of images, it really depends, there are so many different kinds of deck and I find them easier certainly to start with because they are so free you can interpret them in all sorts of ways, you don’t have to learn a system that has been in existence for centuries or whatever first.

Holly: You don’t have to understand the archetypes, their symbolism and all that stuff, yeah, I get that. Why might someone want to use oracle cards?

Joanna: So oracle cards, I think you would use them in all sorts of situations and I use them in all sorts of situations and will link to some information on this on my show notes. I use them in my business, I use them as inspiration for writing, I use them for all sorts of things…for mindset, for personal development, for all kinds of things, because obviously you would want access to that higher wisdom and perspective in all sorts of things that you are doing, not just in a particular aspect of your life. However, because I am not outdoorsy, outdoor adventure is not one of my examples, that is certainly not an area where I would think to use oracle cards. So why don’t you tell us Holly, why would you use oracle cards in outdoor adventures?

Holly: I don’t even know how it occurred to me to start doing this, but when I first did my long distance walk, the South Downs Way, which I first walked in 2015 — it is a 100-mile-trail in South East England — for some reason I got the idea of pulling one oracle card a day for each day of the walk. I wrote that all down and I carried it with me and I kind of used it, it wasn’t so much to set an intention, but it was to get guidance…I don’t even remember [precisely] what my intention was when I pulled the cards, but it was the theme for each day. And so the walk was really challenging to me because I hadn’t done a walk like that before and so I kind of used the daily theme from the oracle cards to reflect on and I used it like a mantra in many situations and, when the going got tough, I just repeated that phrase from the card over and over in my head. Sometimes, I would make a song out of it, I would walk along singing it out loud and it just kind of kept me going. And I noticed that each theme kind of coincided with what was going on for me that day. So it was like it served as a thing to focus on when things were physically tough and also guidance as to what was going on for me. So yeah, I kind of kept up the tradition since then. The walks have been getting easier for me physically, so I haven’t used it as much as that laser focused mantra thing to keep my mind busy, as much as for what is going to be going on for me during the walk from an inner perspective.

Joanna: That’s interesting because, although I haven’t used oracle cards in this way for outdoor adventures, mostly because I don’t have any outdoors adventures!, I have used them and you have as well, for the year or for the month or for the day. You pull a card for a month, or day, and it works in the same way, it just gives you insight and I think that is what I really liked about what you just said Holly, insight into what is going on internally. It is guidance in terms of, again it is not about telling the future about what is going to be going on for you, although I guess it could be used in a certain sense that way, but I guess that is a different conversation— we can talk about that some other time. But it is really insight into your internal world, because one day you could be on top of the world and one day you might not and presumably, especially with your outdoor adventures, or your particular kind where you are walking on your own for an extended period of time, so like days on end, I would imagine that old stuff comes up because you suddenly remember a memory or a person or something you said or something you regretted. There must be some kind of transformation involved because you are making space for the unconscious to come up, to rise up, right?

Holly: Yes absolutely. And because I am alone it is like I am alone with my head, I don’t listen to music, I don’t listen to podcasts, so I don’t have that distraction, I don’t have other people to distract me, it is like me and my head and my body which is achey and going through some challenges, so it really does, it brings things up to the surface for you to look at, it brings up fears, it brings up all kinds of stuff and you have no choice but to look at them because there are no distractions.

Joanna: Wow so your outdoor adventures are really transformational. That scares me because I will go for a walk because I have to, to stay relatively healthy and I will always be listening to music or a podcast or a book, or I will be with someone, or I will be with my husband or my son. I don’t remember the last time I went for a walk without anything and that really freaks me out, because I have this fear of getting bored, I think. And this resistance to being bored and the idea of just being me and my head in that space outside I don’t like it!

Holly: That’s really interesting and I wonder if that is why a lot of people avoid experiencing things like this, I remember talking to someone in my life and she was like, ‘you did that on your own! I could never do that; I couldn’t stand my own company for that long!’

Joanna: It is not so much that, I quite like my own company, I think I am pretty awesome! {laughing} But I think sometimes my head gets so crazy and I think about things over and over again, I am an over-thinker and an over-analyser and all those kinds of things, so it is not a particularly pleasant prospect to spend time with just all those thoughts going round and round and round. Perhaps if it is quieter in there I might consider it. So is your mind always quiet or does it quiet down because you take yourself through this process, do you think?

Holly: I think my mind is generally quiet, I mean I don’t tend to ruminate on worries, or thoughts, or things that are giving me anxiety, but things do come up when I am walking, and because I don’t have those distractions I can get a little obsessed with them in a way that I wouldn’t in my normal, daily, life when I am doing stuff and I have other distractions. I am happy to talk about how I was texting with you and the master-gut that one day where I saw that guy. I was walking, I think this was the second day of my walk, and interestingly the theme for that day was (was that the first day or the second day?) yeah it was ‘antagonism, conflict, disharmony’, and that was the theme for the day. The cards, when I pulled them for this work, they all scared me, I didn’t like them, they weren’t fun and beautiful, they were challenging. So that was that day’s card and I was walking alone, as I do, and I crossed paths with this guy and he kept walking behind me, and then he must have turned around and started coming back my way because about ten minutes later I was really surprised to see him right behind me. That weirded me out, so I slowed down and let him pass me, he got up this hill, I saw him get to the top of this hill and pause, and look around, like he was looking at the view, but then also looking downhill, and that started to freak me out even more.

So I was just on high alert for safety reasons and every time I stopped to take a break, I was looking over my shoulder, because I lost track of him and I didn’t know where he was. Like the anxiety started building up and I remember texting you guys in the master-gut WhatsApp group and saying, ‘this is going on for me’ ,and then I didn’t see him for hours and hours. And then at the very end of the day, as I was half-an-hour from my destination for that night, he crossed paths with me coming from the opposite direction and I was like, ‘what is this guy doing, he is walking back and forth on the same trail, in the same segment, who walks like that, why is he walking back and forth!?’

Anyway, so it freaked me out. I was almost to my destination, so I was like, ‘at least I am done for the day’ but then the following day I was also worried, I was like, ‘am I going to see this guy again? What is he even doing?’ And that was something that caused me anxiety. And yes, sometimes intrusive thoughts happen and then I ruminate on them. The whole time I was thinking: what am I going to do? How am I going to respond if he does this? How am I going to respond if he does that? How am I going to do if I see him again? And every time I saw him I would try to be causal like, ‘hey again’ ‘hi there!’ but in my head I was like, ‘oh my god it is the guy again!’.

Joanna: Hi there, I have alerted everybody that I know where I am and that I have seen you! Hi!

Holly: Exactly! Saw the guy again!

Joanna: The words on your card were disharmony…?

Holly: Antagonism, conflict, and disharmony.

Joanna: So that experience must have helped you to somehow like internally I guess resolve something around conflict with the masculine, perhaps with something, the fear? You couldn’t have guessed from that card, that that’s what would happen, obviously, I think we need to say that, for this particular walk, you had set a very strong intention. You had set the intention that by the end of the walk your transformation into the next identity will be complete.

Holly: Yes.

Joanna: That wasn’t oracle card related but of course it is coming from that same kind of wider perspective place, but when you set an intention like that I think what kind of follows that the cards that follow aren’t going to be, gratitude and love and peace.

Holly: Sunflowers!

Joanna: Because you probably put a whole load of deep transformation stuff into the container of the walk, which was a small container, it wasn’t like six months.

Holly: It was a week. And interestingly I was really aware of who I was crossing paths with on the walk and the card for that day was oak, so wisdom, masculinity, and strength. So every time that guy would pop into my head and I would be like, ‘what if I see that guy?’, I would repeat like a mantra those words, ‘wisdom, masculinity, strength’, ‘wisdom, masculinity, strength’ and I would repeat those over and over. That’s what the man could represent.

Joanna: As you are talking to me it is really clear that the transformation was to heal, to make peace with the masculinity in you and approach it not as a dangerous part of yourself but as a wise and strong part of yourself. It is so interesting because just before this podcast, this recording, we were talking about physical strength and how you have reframed things as, you kind of reframed your health as a journey more into being strong, physically strong, so I think that is really interesting.

Holly: Yeah it is.

Joanna: That that was part of your transformation.

Holly: It is and that’s the thing, sometimes it is really straightforward, because I include these oracle cards in my books, when I write my book about my journey. I have gotten really good feedback from some people about that, some people really like the fact that I include that because that is really unique, but I don’t always understand how the theme from the oracle card corresponds to my journey and that day. Sometimes it takes weeks or months after the experience and sometimes it takes talking to someone else like you. Now it is falling into place and making more sense to me. The following day, which was plantains, innocence, naivety, unaware. And that was the day I heard that car accident, I heard someone get hit by a car at the very end of my journey and this was rough, overall it was a really good experience, but some big stuff happened internally.

Joanna: But you wanted it to!

Holly: Yes, yes. That’s the thing, be careful what you ask for.

Joanna: The reason that intention was set was that you were feeling a little bit impatient for that transformation to be over and to be out of the messy middle and into the new identity and reality already and so this was suggested, and you said yes to it. Of course, it just intensifies it because it puts a whole load of transformation into a short period of time. Now it is done.

Holly: Yes I feel a lot more grounded and solidified in that. So let’s go a little bit more into that, when you are going on an adventure you could also do what I did and set an intention for what kind of inner transformation you are going to experience.

Joanna: I just remembered that you also met an intention a long time ago to meet your guides, didn’t you?

Holly: Yes, so the first time I walked the Ridgeway, that was when those guides showed up, the Richards, and they asked me to channel them. So the last time I did the Ridgeway I did it in eight days and so there were four Richards, no it was nine days, eight days plus one at the start. They said channel each of us for four days, take a break and then the next four days channel each of us. That was also in the book, so my channeling was a big part of that book, and a lot of people didn’t like that book because they thought they were buying a walking book and they got a walking book but with spirit guides {laughing} and a lot of people didn’t like that, so the book doesn’t have very good reviews. {laughing}

Joanna: Well too bad! That is the whole idea of a richer life. Yeah you can just go for a walk and not let any of this other stuff in but it is kind of limiting yourself to current, physical, reality and the fact is, that even if we don’t quite understand it, there is more out there. And by letting it in you will have a more satisfying, richer, life experience, this isn’t just about your outdoor walk, this is about your life experience. So I would think that aspect of your book, or those aspects of your books, are actually like the gold, right! Because anybody can go out and walk and write it up, but your personal transformation, that is very brave to be open to that possibility and to be open to what is possible. It is brave to share it too because it is not just spirit guides, it is your inner world. You are sharing your own inner transformation.

Holly: Yeah, I get really good feedback, lately I have been hearing from readers [saying’, ‘I love that you share that inner journey, in addition to the physical walk, and thank you for being so open about that because it is really interesting. So that confirmation for people and it helps people see that when you decide to do a week long walk or longer, it is not just about the physical challenge of walking a 100 miles, there is a lot that goes on internally and I think the more aware you are of that, the richer your journey.

Joanna: That goes for life as well as the walk right?

Holly: Absolutely.

Joanna: And I think that is important. The way you do one thing is the way you do everything. So if you allow yourself to have a richer experience on your walk, you also allow yourself to have a richer experience in life and as I am saying this I am [thinking] ‘I think I am going to have to allow myself to have a richer experience in outdoor adventures’.

Holly: But outdoor adventures mean different things to different people and this is something that I keep trying to get across in my podcast and in my blog post, especially on the podcast, is that I love kickboxing, I love trail running, I am getting back into running. I love walking for eight days in a row, on my own, but that could be different for other people, other people might like cycling, other people might like a brief stroll in the park. Other people might like, I don’t know, climbing it is going to be different for everyone. I think the trick is it find your joy in nature, what your outdoor adventure of choice is. Maybe redefine adventure into a broader perspective, it doesn’t have to be a huge physical challenge, you could just be going to a new park or a new place…whatever.

Joanna: That’s true, I was actually thinking about this yesterday when I went for my obligatory daily walk in the woods here, that I don’t like woods. It is all right, but where I like to walk is where there is open space. I don’t if you remember when we went to Avebury together last and we did that walk, we walked around that area, and there was one bit there was space everywhere and do you remember that this trail and everywhere you looked around you there was space? I loved it. I could have walked that for ages, but we had to go back to where the people were and all that.

I was thinking yesterday about this and I wasn’t really super enjoying the woods, although I needed to get out and that is what is available to me at the moment, but where I am moving, so we are moving to Ireland quite soon now, it is one of the things that I am really, really, looking forward to is that we are going to be so close to the Connemara National Park, which is all walks like that. It is walks, everywhere you look it is space, there is nothing on the horizon, it is just empty. I am really looking forward to it.

Holly: The Western half of the Ridgeway is very much like that; I prefer the western half. I love the whole Ridgeway. but the western half is really special because you are walking along the ridge and you look in both directions and all you see is rolling hills of farmland, so you have got green and gold and all these different shades of colours, but it is all just open farmland. Sometimes way off in the distance you might see a village or a town, but it is generally just open, broad, views and that just feels so expansive to me and I love that, that kind of view lights me up. I love the woods and I love the trees; I couldn’t live in a place without lots of trees, but I also love those expansive views.

Joanna: I don’t know why that appeals to me, but I see myself maybe pulling a card and going on a walk, there I wouldn’t want a distraction, I wouldn’t want a podcast or anything, I would want to just appreciate the space. And this is not exercise but one of the things I really love is the wild beaches in Ireland, and there, we have done this several times, my husband and son go walking on the little rocks and finding crabs in the rock pools and I sat down with a journal and I will pull a card and journal on whatever the card says. For me that is really, really, nourishing, to be in the wilderness, not the wilderness like the jungle…

Holly: You are in the outdoors!

Joanna: And by this roughish sea, it is not the Mediterranean. It feels alive.

Holly: Yeah it feels wild and raw and nature-y.

Joanna: So tapping into that with oracle cards and any other tool that connects me with the wider part of my wisdom that is a beautiful experience. I have never worked with intention that way but I have certainly asked for guidance in those moments, during those times, and that has just been amazing. The stuff I channel on one of those beaches it is just incredible.

Holly: Yay, so that is a whole different type of outdoor adventure, you are getting outdoors, you are connecting with nature, you are connecting with oracle cards, and you are connecting with that higher wisdom in a very different way —and that is great.

Joanna: Yes so you can use oracle cards in all sorts of ways, right? To set an intention, you don’t need oracle cards to set an intention, if you want transformation to happen over the course of an adventure then you can do that, but an adventure is nice as well, sometimes you don’t know what you should focus on or what your next transformation should be. So then it is nice to use something like an oracle card that will help give you a different perspective that doesn’t come from the logical mind. I really love the pulling a card for each day, but I don’t know how many people do multi-day outdoor adventures either. But you can use that system for anything, pull a card for the week and then see how it guides you. That is what I do with the weekly and monthly messages that I channel for my guide team Avalon. They are meant to guide you through the course of the week and be inspirational, but like you said something to fall back on if you are having a crappy week, and you go back to the message ‘oh yeah but the message said this, how can I look at what is happening through the lens of this?’ Then it makes easier to navigate through in a way that is more grounded and confident and proactive rather than reactive stuff being thrown at you.

Holly: I think for people that do find it difficult to be on their own out in nature when they go on a walk without music, without podcasts, I think that pulling an oracle card could maybe make that possible for you. It could give people something to focus on, like you could repeat it like a mantra, like I would do when the going got tough or just use it to refocus your thoughts into something. So lets go through the practical thing of pulling an oracle card, because it is not like you pick up a deck and grab a card, you have to ask a question, set an intention. What I would say is: what do I need to be focussed on today in my walk? Or what is the theme for this day of my walk? Or what other questions you could ask when pulling the card for a walk?   

Joanna: My god there are so many for a walk, anything really. I don’t think it has to be that general, you could even ask a question that your mind is currently busy with, so even something like: how do I invite in more abundance? How do I make more money? (in normal language) and pull an oracle card and let the answer ruminate to allow inspiration to come to you. So there are a lot of really successful people who say that their secret weapon is a daily walk, where their mind puts into order all the ideas and all the thoughts that they have, and they always come out with extra inspiration or an answer. But because my mind is so busy that doesn’t work for me, but I wonder, if I asked the question, pulled an oracle card for an answer, and then ruminated on how that answer could be my answer, what would that mean? I would be curious to try that actually.

Holly: Yeah.

Joanna: If you trouble coming up with a question well I have a mega-guide with questions and all sorts of things and that we will link to in the show notes as well, because I know this is something we tend to struggle with, and the question needs to be kind of coming from the right space, a powerful space, rather than a ‘please solve this for me’ space.   

Holly: Exactly and not from a telling the future kind of space.

Joanna: Indeed, so you ask a question and pull a card and then you see what, on the card, resonates with you and don’t overthink it, and then usually I would journal on that answer and how it pertains to the question, but if we are talking about outdoor adventures, you just take that answer with you with the intention that by the end of your walk you will understand how that answer is actually the perfect to your question and will actually lead you to the perfect next step.

Holly: And trust that you have got the right card, even if you don’t like the card. I did not the cards I pulled for this walk and it scared the shit out of me. Also, a few years ago, at the end of each year I pull twelve cards for the following year, as a theme and as a guidance, and then I pull a thirteenth card as the overarching theme for the year. This one year, I think it was October or November, I did not like the card I got for that month (it scared the shit out of me), and then I put it back and I pulled another one and the new one was really just totally off, it was like ‘making music’ and I was like ‘I am the most unmusical person, I don’t make music, what the hell is this?’ It was so obvious that the card wasn’t for me, I was like ‘f**k you oracle cards! I don’t want that either because it is obvious that you are like ‘the first one is the right one’. And then I forgot about it. Then the year came, the months happened, I got to that month with the f**ing making music card and the original theme happened and it was rough, but the oracle cards called it. That was the theme for the month, that was the theme I was working on and…you know.

Joanna: You could have signed up for some piano lessons and made that music part come true.

Holly: {laughing} Or singing lessons or something. It was so funny, because when I denied that first card and I pulled the second card it was so obvious that it wasn’t right, it was so obvious that the deck was like, ‘no’.

Joanna: So don’t do that, practice trusting.

Holly: Don’t do as I do and practice trusting so you can handle whatever comes up, I mean even when we have a difficult time internally, there is growth in that, so that day where I was crossing paths with this guy all day and freaking out about it, what does it highlight? It highlights the fact that, yes, I am willing to go on these 100-mile walks on my own and I do have fears about it sometimes, I do still get a little paranoid when I see someone behaving strangely, especially a man who is behaving strangely, and this was poor guy was having an innocent walk back and forth on the trail and I am like ‘what is wrong with him, what are his intentions?’. So…

Joanna: Yeah, I think also we can fall into the trap of assuming, of trying to guess how that theme is going to play out and let me tell you that you will never in your entire life be able to guess how the theme is, don’t even waste your time. I have stopped doing that, I just go ‘okay, that is the message’ and then we will see. The messages that I channel for the month and the week, sometimes I come to Thursday and I am like, ‘oh that is how it is playing out’. It is actually happening to me this week and I could have never guessed, never, that this is the way that the message would play out. There is no kind of point guessing whether the internal transformation will be positive, or negative, or hard, or easy, or whatever, because you just won’t be able to tell before you actually go through it and I think you can be surprised that some of the transformation is actually quite easy to go through, or the way that the lesson shows up is actually quite delightful. Whereas obviously, any lesson can show up in any multitude of ways but sometimes it is in a nice way, so there is just no point in doing that, right? It is like in tarot, the tower card, that means that your whole life is crumbling, that is the major symbolism.

Holly: Yeah I don’t know.

Joanna: I am always scared of getting that card, I think it is one which I am always really scared to get it, or the death card, people are always like, ‘does that mean I am going to die?’ And it is not, it is symbolic of something so a death card can be death, sure, it is possible, in theory, it might just be an ending, something ending so that something new can being and…

Holly: But that is also scary.

Joanna: It can be, but it might not be. It depends on what it is that is ending, it doesn’t have to be scary. I think we need to try to come at it from a neutral perspective, and neutral is very difficult but what is possible is curiosity, so to come at it from the point of curiosity and be like, ‘I wonder how this can play out in a delightful way?’

Holly: Exactly being open and curious to see what it is. So I think that is all I have to say on the topic!

Joanna: Yep I think so, I think that was really fun, if anybody has any questions about, certainly about the oracle cards piece, not the outdoor adventures, feel free to PM me on any of the social media.

Holly: And you also have a blog post of your favourite oracle cards don’t you?

Joanna: Yes I do, I have several oracle card related blog posts and the latest one is a list of my, not just my favourite oracle card decks but like with most beautiful and the ones that I feel get really good answers and best ones for beginners and pretty much all of them, I only included two that I don’t actually own, the rest of them I actually own and work with regularly and because I have a slight obsession with oracle cards I will likely add to it as well. So we will link to that and if you have any questions please do let me know.

Holly: Perfect. And let me know if you have any questions about outdoor adventures and how to navigate the inner journey of your outdoor time because I think that is one of the richest parts, it is like you are challenging yourself physically, but you are going through internal transformation. Yay!

Joanna: Very cool, I had never really thought of it that way, so thank you Holly for that.

Holly: Okay so if you have any questions you can email Joanna at:

Joanna: No email, just PM or DM across social media please.

Holly: And you can email me at: [email protected] or find me online and get in touch there, thank you for listening. Happy adventuring.

Joanna: See you later.

Holly: I hope you found that episode interesting and useful, please drop me a line and let me know wha you thought about this episode, please also let me know if you have any ideas for topics of things you would like me to talk about here on this podcast, or with Joanna, or with someone else. I love getting feedback from listeners and knowing what you would like me to talk about or write about on the blog.  That’s all for now, if you enjoyed this episode please leave a quick review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and remember to visit: https://hollyworton.com/375 for the show notes on this episode. Thank you.