309 Joanna Hennon + Holly ~ How Expressing Your Weirdness Can Help You Live More Fully

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More About Joanna Hennon

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What You’ll Learn

• Why it’s important to be more open and talk about the things we really like
• Why it can be so difficult to admit to liking/doing things that are different
• Why we have guilty pleasures – we’re ashamed of the things we like
• How to open up and express ourselves more fully
• How our fear of judgment keeps us in the sidelines – and how to come out
• Why it’s not easy for anyone to do that – and how to step up and express yourself even when it’s scary
• Why we need more unique voices in a world of so much sameness
• Examples of people we think do this well + stand out in the online crowd
• How sharing a totally different message to the mainstream challenges other people’s ways of thinking
• Why this is ultimately about us giving ourselves permission to be openly different
• Questions you can ask yourself to get clarity on where you’re hiding in the shadows

Things We Discussed

• Company of One: Why Staying Small Is the Next Big Thing for Business, by Paul Jarvis
• Leonie Dawson
• Fabeku Fatunmise
• Katrina Ruth, formerly Kat Loterzo
• Amanda Palmer

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Transcript

The transcript for this episode can also be downloaded here (no opt-in required).

Holly: Hello and welcome to the Into the Woods podcast, episode 309. This is your host Holly Worton and I am back with another co-hosted episode with the fantastic Joanna Hennon. Today we are talking about why it is okay to openly be the weirdo and how expressing our unique weirdness can change our lives.  Both of us have been opening up about the weird stuff that we do and the weird stuff that we believe lately, and that was the inspiration for today’s topic. Now, I know this is something that I have touched upon quite a bit lately when it comes to my book, talking about going on national television, talking about talking to trees and how that has been really challenging and how I have gotten to this point. However, I think this is something that can be life-changing for everyone, because expressing our guilty pleasures, expressing the things that we like and do that are maybe not so mainstream, can be life-changing. It can help us to live more fully, it can help us to step more fully into who we are; and I think the more that we do that and the more that we know ourselves, the more rich our lives become.

So, I hope you find this episode interesting and useful. Some of the things we are going to talk about today, we are going to talk about why it is important to be more open and talk about the things that we really like. We discuss why it can be so difficult to talk about or admit to liking or doing things that are different, especially when they are wildly different, like talking to trees. We discuss why people have guilty pleasures and why sometimes we are ashamed of the things that we like or talking about them. We discuss how to open up and express ourselves more fully. We talk about have our fear of judgement keeps us in the side lines and how to come out of the side lines. We also discuss why it is not easy for anyone to do that, why it is not easy to step up and express ourselves fully and why it is scary and how to do that, even when it is scary. We talk about why we need more unique voices in a world of so much sameness. We share examples of people we think do this well and how they stand out in the online crowd. We discuss how sharing a totally different message to the mainstream challenges other people’s ways of thinking and why that is good. We talk about why this ultimately about us giving ourselves permission to be openly different and we share questions you can ask yourself to get clarity on where you are hiding in the shadows and how you can come out of the shadows.

So, I hope you find this interesting and useful and I hope it is one more step on the path to really fully embodying yourself and who you are and expressing that in the world. So, without further ado, here is today’s episode.

Holly: Hey Joanna!

Joanna: Hi Holly!

Holly: How are you doing today?

Joanna: I am good, how are you?

Holly: Good – I am looking forward to this conversation!

Joanna: Me too.

Holly: So today we are talking about being open about our weirdness and expressing our unique interests and stuff that we do in the world in an open way, rather than hiding it and being secretive about it. And we are going to be talking about why this is so important and why we think that more people need to be stepping up and doing this openly rather than hiding our guilty pleasures and being ashamed of the things that we like to do.

Joanna: And also why it is so difficult, we don’t want to give people a false impression that this is easy for anybody, but once you understand why it is difficult then maybe it will become that little bit easier because you will have more awareness. So why are we talking about this Holly?

Holly: We are talking about this because we are both going through a couple of things where we are talking about different things, things that aren’t very mainstream, things that are triggering to people. I just launched a book a couple of months ago about talking to trees, I went on national television in the UK where I talked to a tree and dealt with all the backlash that comes from stepping up and openly talking about weird stuff to a mainstream audience.

Joanna: Yep! You did do all that! And I am relaunching my business, basically, that is what it is. I am relaunching everything with a focus on manifesting as shifting into parallel realities. I have been talking about this concept of parallel realities for ages, but now I am really putting it at the centre of what I offer and of my way of manifesting something different, a different reality. Both of these things, talking to trees and believing in the multiverse and being able to shift from one reality to another reality, these are weird things!

Holly: Yeah, they are not mainstream things. However, I kind of feel like these topics are at least making themselves into mainstream entertainment.

Joanna: Yeah.

Holly: Which is I think is a very interesting sign of people being open to this stuff, at least in a fictional setting, which I think is a sign that people are moving forward and opening their minds. I think Lost opened up a whole new realm of entertainment based on weird stuff.

Joanna: Wow, you think so?

Holly: Yeah, if you look at Black Mirror, that is all weird stuff, that is weird stuff based on technology, but still futuristic. Although I am saying that, but my husband and I have also been watching the Twilight Zone lately, the original series from 1959. I am shocked by how, granted it is the Twilight Zone, this weird stuff happens in the Twilight Zone, but it is weird stuff, it is parallel reality stuff it is very modern themes and season one of that series aired in 1959, that show was so ahead of its time and it was an outlier but I feel like we are now getting much more stuff like that.

Joanna: I think over the years there has been lots, I mean Buffy, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is my favourite show ever in the whole universe, I think that is the smartest thing that has ever been on TV is Buffy.

Holly: Wow!

Joanna: Yeah I really do, and I am willing to defend that in a whole different conversation if you want. {laughing}

Holly: That might be a separate episode! {laughing}

Joanna: I am the geek who bought all the watcher’s guides, I have theses and all sorts. But there is lots of stuff on there obviously about parallel worlds and weird things happening and anything, I guess any show that has a bit of magic in it, that shows that element, so I would say you are right it is getting into mainstream at least entertainment, but it is still considered fiction.

Holly: Yeah, exactly, but I think the fact that we are creating lots of mainstream entertainment means that we are at least open to being entertained by these concepts.

Joanna: I agree.

Holly: Neil Gaiman has two TV series on Amazon Prime now, he has got American Gods and he has got Good Omens, that is fantasy, but it is magical weird in a modern setting so yeah, I don’t know.

Joanna: I think it satisfies people’s curiosity, my personal theory is that when people who are really drawn to certain topics like that, it is because their soul recognises a bit of truth, you know? Of course it is not exactly as it happens in Good Omens, I can’t imagine that but that doesn’t matter, of course we add story and entertainment to these concepts. People tend to like entertainment with certain themes, I think that’s because a part of them recognises that as something that is truth, something that makes sense to them somehow.

Holly: Yes, I think it is important for us to be open about the weird stuff that we like because it is the only way to normalise it. I am aware that when I went on TV talking about trees, yeah that was kind of crazy, but people do talk to trees and as a result I have been shocked how many “normal” have written to me and said: oh yeah, I had a great conversation with an oak tree last year! Or: I talk to the tree in my local park. So many people that I wouldn’t have thought talked to trees talk to trees. So being open about this and by stepping up and having the guts to talk about it in scary open spaces we are making it easier for other people to talk about this.

Joanna: When you talk about this, the talking to trees, it just makes me think, you don’t have to be inspiring everybody to be talking to trees, but what I noticed, I looked through all the comments on social media on your interview that time, Holly, just to see, just to be able to report back, you know? And there were some you know not so nice comments, sure, but I was really surprised how many comments there were from people who wouldn’t talk to trees, or wouldn’t consider themselves spiritual, but said: you know what, it is true, I always feel better when I am in the trees, when I am in the woods. Or people who talked to their house plants, stuff like that. It normalises that, and that is important because even this week there was something in the news about they have set a standard for how much time you should spend in nature per week for your mental health, like they have sent the 10,000 steps a day and the five fruits or vegetable per day and whatever and they have also set a thing now for being in nature, it is nothing to do with nature, you just have to sit there. It doesn’t have to be trees, it can be the beach or whatever, but in nature, and that apparently does wonderful things for our health and wellbeing. So, by you talking about this stuff, they don’t have to go all the way where you are, but it brings that whole area of nature as something that is a real part of our lives, into people’s…

Holly: …awareness yes.

Joanna: …and so they can do something with it.

Holly: The whole point of the book was not: you go out and talk to trees, it was you go out and connect with nature in whatever way is right for you, but it gets people talking about it and especially when something is so controversial, because it is so different, it gets the conversation going. That one interview was picked up by so many different media outlets and it has gotten me so many other speaking opportunities, so I think that is another reason why it is so important to be open about this because people are interested, it is something that people want to hear about.

Joanna: I had the same kind of surprise, I went through the same surprise the first time I did anything on parallel realities, I just did a live-stream in my Facebook group years and years ago now. I was so shocked about how many people were curious about this. I think because my approach to it, I actually do believe in it because I read tons of the science behind it, so I have an idea of why it works this way and why it is possible, but more interesting I think is the idea that it can help us. I think people find my approach to something that is very weird refreshing, because at the end of the day I don’t really care if it is real or not, I only care if it helps you create the reality you want or create a life that you like better.

Holly: Yes, exactly: does it help you? Does it serve you? Is it useful to you? Then great! Do it! There is a review on my book, from Amazon.com, from someone saying: yes, but we need to have someone corroborate these conversations and we need to have someone else go out and talk to these trees and see if they say the same things that she says they are saying. And I am like: do you have the same exact conversation with every single human being you come across? No! So neither will the trees. If you, Joanna, go and talk to all the trees from my book they are going to tell you something different, because you are a different person, you are going to have a different conversation, but people…

Joanna: We can try that in Glastonbury I can see if that tree there says the same thing that you say that it said, Holly. {laughing}

Holly: {joking} Exactly, word-for-word the same conversation. So why did I even say that?

Joanna: I think we were talking about why it is important. We are going to now move on, because I think we are drifting a bit, we are going to move on to why it is difficult to talk about things that are a little bit different. That kind of position us as not the “norm”. That is the second time we used that word “norm” or “normal” in this conversation both of us in air quotes and yet we use it. So we collectively have this concept of normal and not normal and obviously everybody wants to be normal, right?  Everybody want to belong to something that is considered positive, rather than negative, because abnormal is considered negative. So why do you think it was so…let’s be honest and clear you didn’t find it super-easy to talk about talking to trees and you went through a very long process of getting ready to be able to do that. You procrastinated on writing that book for ages, what was so difficult with coming out with this material in this way?

Holly: So, I think it is just really scary because I am aware that not everyone talks to trees, people would say to me: how is it that you hear them? How do they talk to you? And I would be like: well I hear voices in my head and aware of how that sounds, because that could sound like a mental illness, it could sound like a personality disorder. And in trying to explain to people why I don’t think that’s the case, why I think I am actually talking to something.

Joanna: You don’t want people to view you as crazy.

Holly: Exactly, and of course that was some of the response that I got from the interview, a lot of people said: well this woman is early mentally ill, she is crazy, she needs help, which I understand, I expected that. I was definitely afraid of that, I was afraid of not being taken seriously and I was afraid of people making fun of me, I was afraid of all that.

Joanna: And also I think I have all of those by-the-way, with the parallel reality stuff, I am also afraid, whenever I start talking about shifting to other realities {laughing}, I think people’s eye glaze over, and I can see what happens on their face and they are like: oh crazy person. I think I am also scared of people wanting me to prove it.

Holly: Yeah, exactly.

Joanna: So there are various fears there from what other people think to how they will react, or what they will say to us, so it is fear of judgement.

Holly: I think fear of judgement is the biggest, I think it all boils down to fear of judgement.

Joanna: Everybody has that, right? Even though we can say: I don’t really care what other people think. I am 42 years old now, I don’t really care what people think about me, but in this particular instance, it still comes up and I am like: well, actually, I don’t mind if people think that I am not ambitious, or that I am not the perfect version of a woman because I don’t wear Prada clothes. {Holly: laughing} I have let go of a lot of those things, but I still don’t want people to think that I am crazy!

Holly: Yeah, exactly, I think this goes back to what we were talking about before we hit record which is: I think this goes way, way, way, back in history, from hunter-gatherer days when it was important to fit in with the tribe because if you were ostracised by the tribe and if they cast you out, for whatever reason, you were probably going to die.

Joanna: And I think it is probably safe to say that a lot of us going through the stuff right now, in past lives, have been ostracised by a tribe of some kind, or some kind of community and probably did suffer. There are these layers I think of stuff within us and so we try to fit in. We are taught that from the start, we were also talking about childhood and High School, anything in those situations, anything that is anyway out of the norm, is considered bad. When I was a child you don’t fit in an any way at all, so then you try to fit in, that is your natural reaction to that.

Holly: I think this goes back before High School, elementary school, how many kids were bullied in elementary school, I luckily never was because I tried so hard to be invisible. We all know now that I have autism/Asperger’s, I am weird in my head (Joanna is laughing) but I tried so hard to fit in I was a little kid and I tried so hard to be invisible, so I never got bullied at all because no one ever knew I existed because I was so: invisibility cloak, before the invisibility cloak even existed because Harry Potter wasn’t even around when we were kids, but no one saw me enough to bully me.

Joanna: Right, I was being bullied because I didn’t know because I also have Asperger’s and I don’t understand what people do around me. {laughing}

Holly: So many times it will take me like a week to realise that someone has actually insulted me… I will be like, ah that’s what they meant!

Joanna: My memories from those days are kind of: I don’t get it, I don’t understand what is going on, and now looking back I have words for what was happening, but it wasn’t upsetting to me at all, because I didn’t understand it. But I do remember wanting to be like the other girls, you know? I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be popular, I wanted all those things. The books I chose to read were about social situations, about High School. And this brings up the other side of the coin, I think: on the one hand we don’t want to be ostracised, we don’t want to be kicked out of the community or the tribe, but on the other we don’t want to be put in a box, called “crazy” or “weirdo”. We don’t want to be defined by certain things, by certain choices that other people find weird. I don’t particularly want to be the crazy lady because I believe in parallel realities I think I shift; so, I don’t want to be put in that box because I also have other things that define me that are part of my personality and that are part of me and not all of them say “crazy”.

Holly: Yes, exactly! I don’t talk to trees all day, every day, that is not my main…

Joanna: That is your life now!

Holly: {laughing} Yeah this is my life now, I am just going to go do the woods and sit there forever. {laughing}

Joanna: Oh my god, that’s so funny! If this wasn’t a recorded conversation I would just die laughing right now {laughing}

Holly: As much as sometimes I would like to just sit in the woods, I am not saying that is an unacceptable lifestyle to me,  but that is not the lifestyle I choose to live.

Joanna: Yeah, right, I think that is part of the problem, those weird things, we tend to focus on those weird things in people and think that is all there is to that person and it is not, it’ll be one bit, it’ll be one facet of that person. There are people who are weird all day long and that’s okay  {Holly: laughing} This is probably not coming out right, weird is not bad, I think that is our basic premise, right?

Holly: It is just different, exactly, exactly. But, as children, we are taught that weird is different you don’t want to stand out, you don’t want to be the weirdo. Whereas when you grow up, when you are an adult, It is important to be different, it is important to express your uniqueness, because that is what is going to make you stand out, in your job, in your career, in your school, in your business, in your life.

Joanna: I disagree, I disagree!

Holly: Oh okay good, all right.

Joanna: {laughing} I think nobody wants to be different even as an adult. I think we have this conversation because we have experienced the world of online business, as an entrepreneur, yes, you have to stand out. But for your job, you want to fit in, every company, every organisation, has a corporate culture of some kind. I know people do the weirdest things in the name of corporate culture to belong to their corporate culture, I have heard some weird stories and you need to fit in; you need to wear the suit; you need to be a certain way in meetings; you need to read certain newspapers, otherwise you are never going to get further. And the same for becoming a parent, becoming a mum, you don’t want to be different, you want to do what all the other mums are doing so that you are accepted as one of the mums who know what they are doing. {laughing} You don’t want to be the weird one out, everybody is going to judge your choices. So I think there are areas of life where it is actually even as an adult, the natural thing to do is to want to fit in.

Holly: Oh absolutely, I think it is the natural thing to do but for example at your job, maybe you don’t want to stand out for being the woman who believes in parallel realities because that’s not appropriate but maybe you want to stand out as being the best person on the sales team or the best at that job.

Joanna: That’s not your weirdness that’s just a competitive performance thing.

Holly: True, true.

Joanna: I think, we don’t have tribes, but we do have communities and organisations and we belong to different things. Within those things there are certain norms and certain rules that we follow. I think the reason we talk about this here is because we’ve broken out of a lot of those communities and so you are a solopreneur, or an author, or someone who’s entire thing depends just on you then you don’t have those norms. Although, the entrepreneur space also has norms, the online space also has norms and before we hit record on this we also talked about that, right? Everybody is the same.

Holly: Yes, there is so much sameness.

Joanna: Yes, because there is a certain kind of, certain things that you aspire to. You aspire to having an Instagram account, and posting things on your Facebook page, and being inspirational and posting a tip a week, whatever those things are there are certain norms that we aspire to, that we take on as the goal.

Holly: Even in terms of language that people use there is so much sameness there as well. So many emails that you read they are kind of told in the same way and you can tell they are getting to this thing they are going to sell you, everyone is using the same formula.

Joanna: Not everyone, but yes a lot of people are and so there are norms, right? And when you first join, what do you do? You join some kind of program, you get some kind of mentor, and then you see how things are done: this is the appropriate way to run a Facebook group, this is the appropriate way to be on Twitter, like, what do you share on Twitter, what do you should share on Facebook…? You are told certain norms, it is the same as corporate culture, right? And you want to fit in, for the reasons that we just mentioned, it is really hard to be the one who states the unpopular opinion or is totally different from anything else anyone has ever seen. And yet, those are the people that get noticed because we crave that.

Holly: Yes we crave something different.

Joanna: Otherwise it just gets so boring out there! So I always notice, and I am very aware of this now, and I have stopped buying anything that is just different. For a while I found myself, whenever I noticed that someone was saying something different or expressing a different opinion to everybody else, or whatever, or doing things in a different way, it doesn’t matter if I agreed with the opinion, or I liked the different way, I would buy from them, because it would catch my attention. I have stopped doing that now of course, thankfully, because that’s not the point. It is just to notice that those are the things that catch your attention.

Holly: Yes, and maybe notice why that catches your attention, why you like that person, what is it that attracts you to that person?

Joanna: Exactly, and the common denominator is just that they are different.

Holly: They are doing things differently they are saying things differently.

Joanna: I don’t know about the listeners here, but I just get so sick of all the, even the words that I used to use, “greatness” and “play a different game” and all the stuff.

Holly: “up-level”

Joanna: And “change the world”…everybody is using them they have lost their meaning. So, when, for example, on a podcast I listened to a man called Paul Jarvis was mentioned as having written, The Company of One, actually, it was Joanna Penn’s podcast. His whole idea is to question: why do we have to grow as business owners, do we actually have to grow? Does everyone actually have to aspire to having a VA and a team…or not? And I was like: that’s really refreshing, I don’t know. So, I started reading some of his stuff, not because necessarily I was like: oh my God he is so right, but oh that’s refreshing.

Holly: It’s different.

Joanna: It’s different and so I am going to explore that! So this a great reason to express things that maybe are not “the norm”, because that’s what gets you noticed, and makes you stand out.

Holly: And as you said earlier, and I think this is a really important thing to call out, because we were talking about calling this episode: why it is okay to openly be the weirdo. As you have clearly said there is a time and a place to openly express your weirdness and maybe at your corporate job is not the place.

Joanna: I think when you are comfortable with your own weirdness then it is just natural to just be you wherever you are. One of our examples of someone who does this really well, of expressing weirdness really well, of really being themselves, really being completely 100% is Leonie Dawson, whose former Academy is where Holly and I met.

Holly: Yay!

Joanna: So Leonie, I don’t think she teaches business anymore, but she taught business in a very kind of colourful and creative, arts-y, hippy, way. I remember her stories of still being in her government job, she was working in local government, and she would do tarot readings at her desk. It was totally against company culture, but because she was comfortable with herself, she was able to just be herself and not in a pushy shove it in everybody’s face way, but if someone was interested then she would be willing to talk to them about those things that she valued or found interesting outside of work and I think that’s it. It is not that you hide your weirdness, it is kind of not a question whether you express it or not, you can feel when it is appropriate and when it is not appropriate.

Holly: And you are not pushing it you are just naturally letting it be.

Joanna: Exactly, just like you don’t ask yourself whether it is appropriate to talk about finances or ask people about their salaries, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t and you know when that is, if it is something that you are interested in then you have those conversations and that’s okay. I think it is matter of being comfortable with who you are.

Holly: And that’s really hard, sometimes, to know who you are and feel comfortable with that, especially when the stuff that you like is different.

Joanna: It gets easier as you get older, that’s one benefit of getting older, you kind of understand yourself better and care about other people’s opinions a whole lot less.

Holly: Yay, forties! So another thing we were talking about when we were discussing this topic before we got on air was guilty pleasures. So, that idea that we have to be ashamed of some of the things that we like, because we listen to a certain kind of music, or we like a certain kind of tv, that’s just another expression of ourselves and I think sometimes when we do talk about the things that we like, that’s what attracts people to us, because we form those connections.

Joanna: Even outside of a business context, when we talk about the things we like, we are kind of just being okay with everything. We are letting people immediately know if they want to pursue that conversation or relationship or not. Same goes for making new friends, or making friend with your colleagues or in any situation at all, right? I know, I am just going to ask you: do you have any guilty pleasures Holly?

Holly: I am kind of ashamed of the music I listen to when I exercise or when I go on a run.

Joanna: What do you listen to?

Holly: Just shitty pop music. I don’t listen to a lot of music and my musical taste kind of got stuck in the 80s and 90s.

Joanna: Mine too.

Holly: So when I listen to exercise music, like when I go for a run, I listen to modern music, but just mainstream pop music so I am kind of embarrassed about that

Joanna: That’s fine.

Holly: Yeah which is ridiculous, it has got a great beat for running, why am I ashamed of that?

Joanna: Yeah, it is really silly. I listen to a lot of 90s and 80s and even 70s and early 2000s music when I run, probably just when I run, or sometimes when I go walking. It is cheesy music and I call it a guilty pleasure, I didn’t listen to it for years because my husband is a musician, and so there is a lot of quality music in our house, actual good music, you know. I don’t listen to music for that, although I do like some of the stuff that he listens to as well. But the 90s music and 80s music, it is more of an emotional connection for me, I listen to music for the nostalgia aspect.

Holly: Yes, absolutely.

Joanna: But I still felt like it was a bit of a guilty pleasure and I didn’t listen to it forever. The other music I like is show music, I am a big Broadway and West End fan, and a singer, and just recently, I don’t know why this has been missing from my life for years, literally for years and years and years because nobody else in my house likes that kind of music I just kind of let it go, but I really like it. I like to turn on karaoke versions of these songs and belt stuff out and have them on in the background and sing along and I really enjoy that. Recently I made a playlist called Joanna Loves to Sing.

Holly: I like that!

Joanna: I put all these show tunes on there that I like to sing but it was guilty pleasure that I hid for years, and why?

Holly: Yeah.

Joanna: No good reason except for most people don’t like that stuff, it is “uncool”.

Holly: But I think who do like that stuff, and there are plenty of people who like that stuff, now that they hear that they are going to be like: oh I wonder what music JoannA likes?

Joanna: If you are wondering that then send me an email or PM e on Facebook and I will let you know my favourite musicals.

Holly: So I think this is part of expressing ourselves and we were talking about words that are overused and authentic my or authentic is one of them, but really, talking about this stuff, our guilty pleasures, the weird stuff that we do that we do that is part of us expressing our authentic selves, but again as I say that I think how overused that phrase is. But if you are running a business that is really important to express that authentic self and even if you are not running a business in your life, whatever it is that you do, why would you not want to be yourself, it is so stressful and unsatisfying trying to pretend to be something else.

Joanna: If you are not being yourself, then you are not giving people who are your natural friends and contacts and clients and partners, whatever, you are not giving them an opportunity to come your way, right? It is like people who do come your way are attracted to something that is not real in you, those relationships will feel heavy and unfulfilling and you will always feel a little bit empty, a little bit dissatisfied. So if that is how you are feeling, look at this, what are you ashamed of, is it your music, or your taste in TV or that you like certain kinds of clothes and not other kinds of clothes. What is that and let yourself be a little bit more you.

Holly: So maybe if you are the kind of person who likes to journal maybe sit down and make a list of all the stuff that you love, what are your utility pleasures in music and film, in television, in clothing, in any kind of cultural stuff, entertainment… foods? I don’t know.

Joanna: I am a little bit ashamed that my favourite food is pizza…seriously, I feel that as a conscious person and into spiritual stuff I shouldn’t like pizza, it is almost like I should know better.

Holly: {joking} You should know better, if you were truly a spiritual person your favourite food with be salad {laughing}.

Joanna: I know, right! I constantly feel like my favourite food should be salad. So these things can show up in really different ways, right? I feel like I am slightly ashamed that I really like red wine.

Holly: What? That’s pretty mainstream, lots of people like red wine.

Joanna: But I have a glass most days, two even, and it is something and people are always talking about reducing and I am like: but I don’t want to, why would you do that? And I just really like it you know, and it is because I am judging myself against a standard of perfect yoga health.

Holly: Which is ridiculous.

Joanna: Of not putting any toxins into my body or whatever, so it has become a little bit of a shame thing that I almost have to defend, that I feel that I have to defend.

Holly: Well, I will just come out and say that one of my favourite foods is bacon and that is totally not spiritual. Bacon makes everything better {laughing} I put bacon in my salads.

Joanna: My husband also thinks that bacon makes everything better, he will even eat a Brussels sprout if there is bacon.

Holly: Yum!

Joanna: So I just think the more we are willing to admit what we really like and what we don’t like, it just makes us more okay, that can only be a good thing, it can only create more closeness, more intimacy, more depth in your life.

Holly: It is about giving ourselves permission to be ourselves and express ourselves and share the stuff that we like. I really think it is giving permission to do this,it is okay.

Joanna: I think I will do maybe a blog post with the list of things that I like but I shouldn’t like.

Holly: All of your guilty pleasures…I am trying to think of more of mine.

Joanna: You don’t have many. And every time I judge myself for the things that I like – listeners if you want to explore this, that will be a good question: what do you judge yourself for? Where do you think you are wrong? Whenever I talk about the things that I think I shouldn’t feel, or are a bit wrong about me, people are like: you should totally talk about that. The fact that I don’t really like nature so much.

Holly: You do, so long as it doesn’t touch you.

Joanna: Indeed!

Holly: {joking} But if you were really spiritual you would like to touch nature! {laughing}

Joanna: For years I would have energy practitioners be like: all you need to do is walk bare foot in your garden and I would be like: okay.

Holly: And it never happened.

Joanna: That is like my worst nightmare, that is never going to happen. Now that I have done this self-kindness, self-acceptance work I am able to say these things and be okay with the fact that I don’t like to be too close to nature, I am squeamish, I just don’t like it and that’s okay. When I talk about it people say: you should talk about that more that’s interesting. So, maybe to conclude we should talk about some other examples of people who we think do this well, who show themselves and aren’t afraid to be themselves. We mentioned Leonie Dawson.

Holly: Yes, so another person who I have mentioned so much on the podcast, is Fabeku, whom I really love, and I have done one of his programs and I had a one-to-one session with him last month I think it was. He does business differently, he has an email list, but he never uses it, he basically has Facebook group and that’s how he engages with people, Facebook group. And he has these very specific rules on how you can get into the group, you have to know someone who is in there, and that’s how he markets, and he has built this amazing community of people who love what he does, and he is really into magic, and he is really into weird stuff and he talks about his cat…

Joanna: and his shoes.

Holly: …and his shoes, because he is really into shoes and he shares a lot of really – I don’t want to say heartwarming – about his engagements with people he comes across in life, like people he meets at the grocery store or walking down the street or stuff he observes and it is so different but it is really just him being him and he is a very different person so it stands out. Yeah, he just does things very differently.

Joanna: The other two examples we have on our list are yours Holly, so I will let you explain why.

Holly: So another person is Kat Laterzo who used to be a personal trainer, but she has been teaching and coaching business for years. She was on my podcast and I really like because she just says whatever she wants, and she is very out there and very…I like that she triggers people because you don’t necessarily have to agree with everything that she says but I think she is very different in the way that she does things and I feel like she is very unfiltered in how she expresses herself.

Joanna: I like that word, unfiltered. Maybe that is something to journal on: where do you filter yourself? About what topics do you feel you need a filter because if you actually let go something bad would happen, people would judge you or stick you in the crazy box.

Holly: Yeah, exactly, I think that is exactly what attracts me to her, I have never done any work with her, I have read some of her books, but what attracts me to her is that she is so unfiltered and she just has the guts to say what she wants to say and she gets a lot of hate for it because it is very triggering. And the other person who is very triggering and I don’t know because I really love her, is Amanda Palmer, she is not in the business world, she is a musician, but she has been independent for years, she is doing things different and she is herself. And really triggers people which I find so fascinating because she is just doing her thing, but again in a very different way, she is not doing the mainstream thing, she is doing the independent thing, she is on Patreon, she has had the most successful kickstarter for a musician. She is kind of forging a new path for musicians and I guess that’s what triggers people because she is doing things differently.

Joanna: When people are being truly authentic, others are triggered because they know that they are not, deep down, if you are triggered by stuff like that you know that you are not being authentic, you don’t want people to have that permission because then you will have to have your stuff as well and you don’t want to show yours.

Holly: Yeah!

Joanna: So I think that is totally normal, I really notice the people who are different and I respect the guts as you say to be really be yourself and speak your mind and I think it just challenges your thinking and the way you look at things and so you don’t have to agree with the person, o Rilke the way they are doing things but it will make you have a different perspective and that is always a good thing because we An get very stuck in our ways and very stuck in the norms and kind of stuck in a rut. So these people challenge us, they make us stop and go: hey there is a different way, I didn’t think of it this way, or…I. Think that is really important because otherwise we just become sheep and following the herd the whole time. We need these people to be speaking up.

Holly: Yes we need these people who are breaking the rules and doing things differently because it just shows us that there are multiple ways of doing things and that our way is just another way.

Joanna: Indeed, so I think there is a real place for the people who are willing to stand up and say things that might be unpopular or triggering, or whatever it is, there will always be someone who agrees with you. There might be someone who disagrees with you but there will always always be someone who agrees with you. I have never seen a situation even when I thought I was being super courageous, and I thought my opinion was the total opposite to what everybody else. Was thinking and whenI expressed it people say: oh, I secretly think that too.

Holly: Exactly, but secretly thinking that too, not openly think that too, that’s important. IT is so important to speak up and share your weirdness.

Joanna: Exactly, this is kind of where we started with, we know that it is difficult, Holly has been talking about her conversations with tres, I am starting to talk about parallel realities, I tis just as difficult for us as it is for you, to talk about things that you are really passionate about and really believe in, and have a need to delve into and express because you ant delve deeper into those things without putting them out there because you don’t exist in a vacuum, you need the response, you need the community, you need those other people so it is not any more difficult for you than it is for us. We know why, maybe think about why, now that you know why and have thought about why it will be that little bit easier so just be yourself, even if it is a little bit difficult.

 

Holly: Be yourself and express yourself. I also wanted to say, this was a journey for me to get ere, I have done a ton of mindset work to get here, I have one a ton of work on my beliefs To get here. I have done so much work with myself on visibility and being willing to step up, it wasn’t like I woke up one day and went: right then I am going to go on national television and talk about talking to trees, it was a journey for me to get here.

Joanna: I think that was a good point, it is not overnight, I have been kind of secretly talking about parallel relatives for probably about three years, right? Remember that No Limits, the conference, that we were both part of, that was really a funny story, all these signs in m life pointed in the same direction and I just ignore them. I had a speech prepared and then the person who said before me basically said the same thing that I was going to say, and I basically said to Holly: agh I don’t have a speech anymore because she has just said everything I was going to say. And you said: well, what do you need to talk about? Why would this be happening? And I said: parallel realities, of course. And then I thought that was going to set me forward and then I put it to the side again, and forgot, so it has also been a journey of many years to get to this place or being willing to talk about it more openly and to admit what I believe about it and all these things. So it is not an overnight thing.

Holly: No it is not, but I think once you start the ball rolling it opens a whole bunch of avenues that you thought you couldn’t even see before.

Joanna: I agree, so do it!

Holly: Yay! So let’s wrap this up, if anyone has any questions about this or if anyone wants to hear more about this, I don’t know. If you have any questions and you want to get in touch you can email me [email protected] or

Joanna: [email protected] or PM on any of the social media, I am Joanna Hennon throughout.

Holly: All right, have a great week and we really encourage you to do some journaling or think about how you can step up and express yourself more in the world and openly express your differences and weird things. Thank you so much for listening if you enjoy this episode please leave a quick review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to this podcast it would mean the world to me. Next week’s episode, I will be back with another solo show and I don’t know what that is about, but it will be timely. I have been doing this pretty much the week before they go live which I am really, really, enjoying because it means that the topic is about something that is timely to me. So, I hope you enjoy this and remember to visit: http://HollyWorton.com/309 for the show notes on this episode, thank you.